Are we anti-French?
March 6th, 2007 | 
Author: The French author of the, largely, anti-American blog SuperFrenchie called us anti-France in a recent post.
As usual, he takes an aggressive tone but let’s look at what we’ve said here in the past.
We criticised the local education system for choosing not to educate children who don’t speak fluent French at age16 and not providing any means for those children to learn French. Are we right to be critical? Yes. Are we just wanting France to be like the UK? No, because most European countries provide these facilities for immigrants ie we think France should be more European.
We said that the French need to start using toilets. They are the only country I know where you can’t drive for a day without seeing someone peeing beside the road. It gives France a bad image and that’s why we’re critical of this practice.
We’ve been critical of French labour laws because they limit employment for the French. These days service type companies can work nearly anywhere and thoses jobs will just flow away from France if the employment laws don’t change which can’t be good for France.
We’re critical too of the really bad customer service in France. It’s not that we want France to be more like the UK but more like everywhere else in the world. The French do themselves a great dis-service by not demanding more.
I don’t think we’ve said yet but we’re also critical of the practice of French politicians always backing down in the face of any protests. As we said recently this gets the people what they want, which is often not what they need.
Of course, SuperFrenchie goes on to take quotes out of context as when he says that we’ve said things when we’re just quoting one of the election candidates.
So, yes, we are critical of France in a number of areas but we praise it too. I think it’s sad that we’re not writing this on a souped up version of Minitel and that, in general, France didn’t look outside the country to sell that and other French developed technology. For that matter, it’s a shame that we aren’t all using the Dvorak keyboard layout.
As we said recently, being critical of the government does’t make you anti the country because if it did then all politicians would be classed as being against their country. After all, their job is to change things.
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Posted in Commentary
Arnold: //As usual, he takes an aggressive tone but let’s look at what we’ve said here in the past.//
You forgot that:
All quotes are from Wendy. No aggressive tone at all….
No argument that Wendy can take quite an aggressive tone at times as do many Australians.
What surprises me is that YOU do. I don’t think that I’ve met anyone here that has a tone quite like yours. Has living in America changed you that much? I mean that as a serious question, not as a taunt in any way.
Arnold, I think you have humoured this character quite enough and I wonder whether he is actually French at all. I suspect he has jumped on a bandwagon. If he is then he does his fellow frenchmen a great disservice. Even the title of his site labels America as a ‘french bashing’ country. I wonder what Americans would think of that – that their country ‘bashes’ the french living there. He is fine when pointing the finger but cannot tolerate a finger pointed at him.
I’m concerned at the inaccuracies and over-blown generalisations of your posting.
My experience of the French educational system has been very positive: my two children were given abundant support to get their French up to speed when I lived in France. Their experience was far superior to may immigrants in the UK who get very little support (I know this first hand as I work as an advisor in Education).
I have no problem with French men relieving themselves “au naturel” – if you do, perhaps you are the ones who are anally retentive. After all, the ones I’ve noticed are very discreet and don’t wave it at you!
Labour laws are rightly stricter in France – that’s the price they pay for an adequate social system – come back to the UK, you may have heard that ours is breaking down (but, oh yes, you want to stay in France, don’t you.)
If you want to experience bad customer service, come back to the UK. In some shops, the word “thank you” is hardly heard (even though you spend your money there). In the UK AND France, there is good and bad customer service – I spend frequent long periods in France and I see no discernable difference.
I think that, like the rude house guest, if you don’t like the experience you should either remain quiet or leave.
Hej Guys.
I find your argument pretty entertaining. Reminds me of kids playing football without a referee, it can quickly turn very ugly.
To my surprise, (if you remove wendy’s stupid statements and the part where you fight about facts and figures…) i happen to agree with most of what both of you (Superfrenchie and Arnold) say.
Let me tell you about me. I’m a 35y.o. guy from southern France who currently lives in Sweden, and is VERY happy about it. To make it short, i escaped -yes, escaped- France for mainly 2 reasons: my swedish wife (that’s the positive part) and the fact that i wanted to do something with my life. Being slightly handicaped (narcoleptic) and though my good education, i tried looking for a decent job for almost 4 year, without any luck. That was the beginning of the 90s, when at least 35% of the people of my age were unemployed. Then, i tried to start a company (a print& web graphic design agency). I spend 2 years trying to convince folk that internet was going to be very, very big, as it already was for example in scandinavia or the US, i also collected countless promises of help from officials and finally started (year 1999) my little business. Then, it went very bad. Almost immediately. The worst was not the lack of customers or the widespread misconceptions about internet, it was not the fact that very few french people understand what design and communication really is, not either was it my health problem or the lack of competent partners… the worst was the french officials. One third of my time was spent trying to get them to do their job properly, replacing papers they had lost, paying “les huissiers” for imaginary debts and “computer errors”, trying to defend my case with aggresive, hostile or totally passive “fonctionnaires”, who btw would under no circumstances take the responsability of their actions, often didn’t i even get to know their name!… I decided it was time to move when i had recieved the order to pay 250 euro interest and “frais d’huissiers” for a debt of 0,5 euro from the assedic.
What did i find in the cold and dark socialdemocratic and royalist Sweden that was new for me? Well, above all, people who CARE about other people, administrative services that function well, people who take their responsabilities, unions that have an adult and normal relation to working, and a nation who knows that design i a little more than Philippe Stark’s gadgets.
Of course, not everything is great here. But what a change… Here, people pay their taxes without problem, because they know that it’s the way society works, and the price to pay for highly efficient administrations. People are opened to other cultures, as well as they cherish their own, no problem with doing both thing. Here, people don’t think that laws are just guidelines that can be ignored if you are smart enough.
oh god… i think i’m bitter. But that’s only when i think about my old France.
And what strikes me is that american (or anglosaxon i a broader meaning) critics about France are most of the time soooo stupid, driven by clichés from 1940-50s, totally unrealistic and unrelevant. I mean, there are so many ways you can criticize France and be right about it, how come the francophobes in the US and elsewhere in the world (who basically repeat what US francophobes say or write) can be so wrong so often? that amazes me and make me a great fan of Superfrenchy’s site. But when i eventually find a guy like Arnold, who makes comments from his own experience and is often accurate in his critics, i can just wish i was with him in Maury, sitting on a terrasse in the sun with a good glass of wine to push the debate further…
Saying that the French “should start using toilets” (by the way you forgot to add that, as the French bashers usually do, that the French should start using soap) is offensive and disgracious!
Twice in my life I have been shocked by people not using toilets: in London, where people leaving pubs in the evening were peeing everywhere in the streets, and in Scandinavia (Sweden and Norway), where a large part of the population indulged in binge drinking in the week ends and ended up pissing openly in the streets.
Go back to Britain if you feel so miserable in our country…
I don’t generalise about the education as problems such as we have experienced seem to be confined to a small number of areas in France. Most areas appear to be fine but at least two are not.
I usually don’t have a problem with the peeing though I do feel that it gives France a bad image. Where I do have a problem is the practice of a coach pulling in and everyone being directed towards the wall or garden. That isn’t acceptable behaviour.
The problem is that the social security system isn’t “better”. What happens is that many French don’t declare income. I was quite shocked at how openly they did it too with two sets of books being commonplace in ALL the places we looked at before buying here. Our accountant can’t understand why we have any cash income to declare.
I agree that the bonjour etc. is nice in the stores but it’s rarely backed up by anything tangible. The attitude in stores is usually that the customer is wrong. Try taking back something to see what I mean. It is improving quickly though from what I’ve seen.
Look at my comments more closely. I didn’t want France to fail on us with the education but it did. I point out that the peeing gives the country a bad image and I don’t want it to have a bad image in any way.
hi
i would second matt’s comment on swedish efficiency over france’s .i used to live in sweden about 12/13 years ago
i wasn’t married but had a swedish girlfriend we applied for a
“carte de sejour “and after having an interview the card came through pretty quick ,well i had to renew my french passport and the nightmare began ,had to send it to the french embassy with the right amount of money for the timbre fiscal then they got in touch w/the prefecture in france ,it took 2 1/2 months to get my
pasport back (the french embassy never had a reply from the prefecture and the guy went ahead and issue me the passport .
i work in england and was due a tax refund but had to go back to france they asked for my adress in france and said they would send a check (yeah right)well they did had to wait forever to get it cleared through the bank though,so in a nutshell(i know this is a long post )the administration sux big time in france
i’m glad i don’t have to deal with that anymore
pascal
I don’t think that there is a perfect country in which to live. All countries have good and bad aspects. I was suprised though that a couple of people said to you Arnold, that if you don’t like it in France go back to the UK. I think that if you live in a country, pay taxes there, bring up your kids there that you are entitled to voice legitimate concerns about your current country of residence.
I agree with what you say, Karen, expecially the idea of each country having good and bad features and I would certainly not want anyone to be silenced in voicing their legitimate concerns. However, I feel that there should be a rational and reasonable balance in articulating such concerns and that is not always the case in this blog.
It’s very easy for anyone criticising the US government or even just the general way of life in the US to be labelled as anti-american. It is, unfortunately meaningless and allows one to disregard what they are saying. Superfrenchie is simply sharing an opinion. Similarly, others on this site might be considered anti-France or ant-french, which also does nothing to illuminate the discourse. So let’s stop all this broad brush anti-whatever talk.
Jill: I’m not sure that there are any blogs that give a truly balanced view of things. Having said that, I think that if you read our blog in its entirity I think you’ll find that it is quite balanced in respect of life in France. Just as “no news is good news”, so too the tendency is to report things that “go wrong” rather than things that “go right”. We have had problems in perhaps five or six areas all told over our time here if you exclude the low level things that always happen in life where-ever you are and, apart from the schooling, have sorted out them all.
I know that you and the majority of people who move here with kids don’t have a problem. However, that appears to be because the majority of people move to areas of France where there are already large numbers of Brits (and other foreigners) living. Those moving to areas where there are few foreigners already settled DO have problems that the rest don’t find and it would be foolish to generalise and say that French schools everywhere accept everyone, because they don’t. In our area is it quite simply impossible to get schooling from age 16 for a child who is not a fluent French speaker and neither is there any mechanism for getting such a child to the required fluency.
Very much agree Ron. There is a strong tendency, particularly in the US, to count anyone criticising the existing systems as anti-American. Yet, if you think about it, that would lump a considerable number of politicians in the “anti-American” camp as they’re in the business of changing things.
I think your blog is wonderful and I never felt you were unduly critical of France. Everything you have written is honest and true. SuperFrenchie should be honest with himself and look at the hateful remarks he has made about the country that he has chosen to live, the US.
You have made remarks that France should have more public toilets. I agree that it gives tourists a bad impression of France. I can understand that some, who have never visited France, would think it is unsanitary to pee against buildings and in the streets. It strengthens the stereotype of the French being dirty. If they want these stereotypes to end, maybe they should consider putting in a few toilets and picking up the dog feces off the streets and sidewalks. PhD said that he expected you to make a remark about the French not using soap. No amount of soap would help the bad impression a person gets when they see a man peeing against a wall in public view. That’s dirty!
Best of luck with your business.
I don’t think your “anti-french”. If you were, you probably wouldn’t be living in France. Your just “anglo-saxons” so you can’t help yourselves critisizing the french a little… And the french will always critisize the british ! That’s how it is ! Even taking the Eurostar to London shows you both countries enjoy making a little fun one of the other… after all, isn’t the end of the line called Waterloo station ;o).
For Wendy’s quote… well c’mon, she’s australian ! Those people live in the wild so no wonder they’re a little agressive, but I’m sure she doesn’t dislike the french. I’d even bet she thinks the french accent is very sexy (as most english-speaking womens seem to think… I’ll never understand why but I wont complain about it !!)
To me, no one seems anti-something on this blog, and thats what makes it intersting :o).
Romain. [ZeMoua]
Of course, my remark about australians living in the wild is not to be taken seriously and is only humourous ! 🙂
ZeMoua, let me tell you that you are not too wrong in writing about some Australians living in the wild!. There are parts of Australia that are very isolated and rough and the people who live there tend to be quite ‘feral’. It’s the conditions that they have to adapt to I suppose but none of them are dangerous I must add:) My own cousin lives out in the bush, in a house he built himself, carries a shotgun around with him and eats kangaroo meat!.
He carries the shotgun because the Australian bush/Outback is home to countless living nasties that will kill you with one bite…(I’m not one of them though).
The British who carried out the atomic testing in the Australian desert back in the 50’s not only disregarded the native population but failed to properly inform and protect the Australian servicemen who were involved. As a result most of those men have since died of leukemia. In the 80’s the survivors attempted to claim compensation from the British Govt but were largely treated with quiet contempt.
I wouldn’t say Australians as a whole are aggressive creatures (except on the rugby field ) but it is in our natures to be ultra-direct and I suppose this can come across as such. I certainly am not anti-French people but am ‘anti’ with regards to certain areas of ‘the system’. But, as Arnold has stated, this ‘system’ does differ around France as many of our friends have told us. It seems we just chose an area not yet accustomed to new arrivals (non french) whereas other people we know have had no problems at all in their chosen areas. We just try to work with it, but, it gets very difficult when it works against us.
We have found so many advantages to living here and really enjoy our life. It has been 3 years for us and we are starting to now feel settled. Our main motivation for coming here was to have more time with our children and to give them a safe and healthy environment to live in and that is what we have found here. I like the family oriented society here; the open acceptance and appreciation of children compared to places,especially like the UK, where children are considered a nuisence in public places. It is a family friendly country and that is what we really like about France.
The peeing thing – we are getting used to the sight of men standing beside their cars along the roadways now, and, even the sight of a lady coming out from behind a large bush pulling her skirt down, in fact, we laugh now at the sight. But, it is difficult to accept some people using the ground/garden of your home as a toilet. Especially when there are miles of open fields around us that they could have used. Mind you, we are considering keeping a large fire hose handy to the front this summer should our garden look attractive to anyone with a full bladder, I think one well aimed jet of water will add some much needed humour to the scene:))
Yes, there are some issues (administrative) in France that need ironing out but I could fill several pages with things that need fixing in Australia…and especially the UK!. I suppose it is natural that some people will get upset on hearing critical comments from us non-french but I would say that is more of the attitude ‘we can criticise us but you can’t’. I know because that attitude also exists in Australia and is more of a self defence thing.
Believe me, if we ‘hated’ France and its people we certainly would not stay…but we don’t. We are happy here, and to be able to say that despite some of the difficulties we have experienced obviously shows there have been huge compensations in other areas of our life in France. And we can only be grateful to the France and the French for those, and we are.
Didn’t see many people like your cousin in Australia but then, I lived in Perth and not in the bush so it might’ve helped :).
Oh, and by the way, I do enjoy eating kangourou meat, from what I can recall, it didn’t taste bad at all !
Good idea about the hose thing, it can only be fun ! 🙂